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Gast | huge tits and big asses But in SL we can be a bit more self-indulgent sometimes I think?I have definite subbie tendencies in SL, and have had close and loving relationships with two Mistresses (one of whom hardly comes inworld at all anymore [pouts]). I've also been honored to have one girl submit herself to me. But none of the relationships involve total submission: neither of my Mistresses have wanted control over when I log in or out, or what I do when I'm not with them (with one or two exceptions), and I don't require that of my girl either. I don't know if this means we're all fake doms/subbies :) or if these relationships are "really just" Top/Bottom, but to the extent that you use that language I'm going to tend to tune you out, because it seems kinda judgemental and, well, the community gets enough o' that judgemental stuff from the Herald tyvm!I think your attitude toward and thinking about BDSM are spot on, for the most part. Maybe I'm just suggesting that you phrase it more like "this is h ow I think it works best", rather than using words like "fake" and "madness" towards those that do it different. ( /me suddenly finds the "Submit" button very funny. :) ) wrote:. I'm not sure it's useful to try to draw really hard distinctions like this around the words, and say that people who like limited-time limited-control limited-depth bottoming are "fake subbies". I mean, they have submitted some portion of themselves to the Top for some period of the time; no sense alienating them by calling them "fake". :)I thank you for your thoughts and certainly respect them. However, I have to disagree with you here. What you are discussing here is a "role-play," in which a limited time/control/depth person takes on a "role" of a submissive for some brief period. This is not in the total sense of the word, as the person gets up and walks away from it after the scene is over. There is nothing at all wrong with this, if this is what the Top and Bottom want, but it's not really *being* a submissive, it's jus t having fun in a limited setting. D/S is, IMO, far more than being tied up and used by someone in some limited time/space setting, but a good number of "submissives" floating around SL seem to think that's what it is. They are looking to express some aspect of b/d or s/m, but they then take on the monkier of "sub" or "slave. " And a lot of "subs" want to use a dom/me as their personal sex machine, to get them off when they want, and then leave the dom/me behind until the "sub" is all worked up again, and then comes back for more. Similarly the person who says "NO limits" doesn't really mean it, of course, but e's expressing the fantasy that e's in at the time, and "madness" is a bit harsh. In RL, it would indeed imply ignorance of SSC principles. But in SL we can be a bit more self-indulgent sometimes I think? I don't tell people what to do, and when I see these people doing their thing I don't make any comments to them at all. They want to live their SL that way, it's fine with me. However, I do have issues with it, and I do have opinions on it which I post on my personal blog and talk about with friends that are like-minded. And I do think it's madness to say such a thing - no one would do that in real life, and IMHO it makes a mockery of BDSM by totally ignoring SSC and pandering to wierd stereotypes (and yes, there are certainly people in the RL BDSM community that think that way too, as I noted. )In relation to your SL dominant/submissive relationships you wrote:[N]one of the relationships involve total submission: neither of my Mistresses have wanted control over when I log in or out, or what I do when I'm not with them (with one or two exceptions), and I don't require that of my girl either. There are some people that do take SL d/s to real life, that can be good or bad, and certainly if people want to do it, that's fine with me. However, you say here that your Mistresses didn't "control" you when you weren't with them, and that you don't "control" your girl when she's not with you. I would call that sceni ng, not really a submissive. Again, I'm not judging it, you can certainly do whatever you like and feels right for you, but I can't call it d/s from the strict point of view. All I'm saying is I think that people who call themselves "submissives" but don't intend to submit 100% to their dom/mes commands would be better off calling themselves "Bottoms. " Submission is submission, not "submitting when I damn well feel like it. " But that's my opinion, and I certainly wouldn't try to change things for others even if I could. If people are happy doing their part-time "subby" thing, that's great. If dom/mes are happy being used as sex-machines, that's great. These are just opinions, nothing more. -V (Anonymous) wrote: I'd like to say in advance that I enjoyed and appreciate your reply, and that of course everything that I say is equally just *my* opinion, and I don't intend anything here to be a put-down or insult to you. But I find the subject irresistable. :)'All I'm saying is I think that people who call themselves "submissives" but don't intend to submit 100% to their dom/mes commands would be better off calling themselves "Bottoms. "'Well, but there are lots and lots of folks who stop short of TPE and still legitimately use the word "submissive". There is room, imho, for lots of variation in just where to draw the definitional lines, and I think it's important for tolerance's sake not to insist that our own usage is the only proper one. Saying "Submission is submission" for instance really seems to be suggesting that there's a Right Place to draw the line, and even if you allow that others might have different opinions you seem to be granting their right to be wrong, rather than allowing that they might be right. If that makes any sense. :)The word "Bottom" has lots of connotations, mostly them purely sexual. It's possible to have less-than-full-time relationships that fall short of your requirements for "submission", but are only secondarily about sex to the extent that "Bottom" doesn't really seem applica ble. (I'm not sure about your use of "better off" here, either. Better off how?)Calling a relationship "scening" is a bit of a put-down, even if an unintended one, in that it suggests that it has more in common with a casual encounter at a play-party than it does with deeper and longer-term relationships. Although the D in my relationships doesn't try to exercise significant control of the s when we're aren't together, there's still a depth of love, and respect, and (apologies!) submission present that's not there between casual scening encounters with joyful acquaintances. So I guess what I see in your post (and maybe I'm imagining it entirely!) is an admirable willingness to say that relationships of certain kinds are Just Fine, but on the other hand a desire to say that it's not legitimate to label those relationships in the way that the participants most naturally label them. Maybe I'm just a hopeless subjectivist :) but in general if the people in a relationship label it a certain way I will tend to endo rse and celebrate that label, unless there's some strong reason to do otherwise (stronger than just different tastes about where on a continuum to draw a definitional line). Having said all that I have to admit to a certain amount of hypocrisy :) in that if I see a relationship like the "personal sex machine" ones you describe, where it seems to be entirely about "whip" / "be whipped" poseballs rather than about any real power exchange or feelings of control, I'm awfully tempted also say that "oh, that's not really submission that's just bein' silly". But I try to restrain myself. :)Thanks again for the thoughts, and apoligies if this seems like a stranger horning into your personal weblog and insulting your opinions. I really don't mean to! wrote: Thank you again for your opinions, whoever you are! :P[T]here are lots and lots of folks who stop short of TPE and still legitimately use the word "submissive". I guess we are miscommuncating here. I have never talked about a Total Power Exchange, nor do I believe that a person must enact a TPE with a Dom/me to be a "submissive. " In fact, I strongly believe in safewords, limits, and an evolution of a bdsm relationship from the initally accepted levels to different ones. These ideas are contrary to the accepted ideals of a TPE. On the other hand, I don't believe that a "submissive" is really "submissive" if they come on for kinky sex play, and won't take directions and commands from their dom/me, or only do such things half-heartedly. Which comes to this:Calling a relationship "scening" is a bit of a put-down, even if an unintended one, in that it suggests that it has more in common with a casual encounter at a play-party than it does with deeper and longer-term relationships. Not at all, you are misinterpreting what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with a relationship that has scening, if that's what the partners want. But if the d/s does not exist beyond whatever scene is going on, it's not a d/s. It's a relationship with a proclivity toward bdsm scening. What I am trying to say here is that if d/s doesn't go *past* whatever scene is going on, the "submissive" isn't a in the full sense of the word. Let me ask you a question: say you were chatting with friends, and your Domme suddenly IMed you and said "Attend me, now. " Would you immediately drop everything and go, or do you feel you could legitimately say "Not in the mood" or "I'm busy" or simply say "Don't want to?" (assuming it was not a time that was pre-agreed she would not call you, such as a SL job or something). If your Domme decided you would spend the weekend in a gag, or wearing a certain outfit, do you feel you should be able to deny the request as unacceptable to you?This is the crux of what I'm getting at, and I'm interested to see your thoughtful ideas on it. As far as subs that are not subs 100% being "better off" calling themselves "bottoms", you replied:(I'm not sure about your use of "better off" here, either. Better off how?)If I haven't been clear, I feel that non-submissive "subs" tend to muddle up things for those that do give their submission 100% to their domme. I've met lots of burnt-out dom/mes that at least complained about subbies that won't obey, and some that have left d/s or are thinking about it, because they have had flakey "subs" that simply wanted a sex machine rather than a dom/me. That leaves subs that *will obey* in a harder position to get dom/mes to be willing to trust them. More dom/mes I know are extending the periods of probation that they hold a potential sub to before taking them on, or even scening with them. This, IMO, is a good thing, and will seperate the part-timers from the ones willing to commit to a d/s relationship. Of course, there will always be dom/mes not looking for 100% subbie subs, and there will always be subs that want to scene, but not really obey full time, so I think everyone will find a place sooner or later. I am going to post about "opinions" in another post, and that will go beyond the bdsm scope of this thread. Thanks again. -V (Anonymou s) wrote: All good questions. (And as for who I am, I'm someone who pretty much never posts at this level of depth on these subjects anywhere, because of privacy concerns of the others involved, but just couldn't resist jumping into this one for some reason, even if anonymously!) And since you actually ASKED me to answer, how can I resist. :)Since you aren't talking about TPE, I'm slightly uncertain about just what you mean by "100% subs", and the other places that you've used "100%". The very good things that you mention, like safewords, limits, and agreed-to levels, are all things that make the submission less than 100%; they acknowledge that the sub still has certain well-defined kinds of control. What I'm wanting to point out, I guess, is that if a relationship can have those things and still count as "real submission", then it seems only fair that a relationship can also have somewhat broader areas where the sub has some control, and still be "real submission". Otherwise we're saying, "well, *our* limits on D power don't make the submission fake, but *your* limits do. " And that seems kinda mean. :)I agree with you that if a self-described submissive doesn't actually SUBMIT at all, then it's a little odd to call em a submissive (although I can imagine circumstances where, say, they're really trying hard to, and the label might be appropriate). My main point of contention is when the s really does submit, but it has visible consequences only in certain circumstances or at certain times. On scening again: it's possible that we just mean different things by the words; I've read about RL D/s, but practiced it only in SL. To me, though, when I'm with Mistress (say), there usually isn't a scene of any kind going on! I'm just with her (note: she doesn't like her pronouns capitalized :) ), and feeling that love and joy and submission that she permits me to feel. This isn't a scene, a discrete thing that we set up individually for a certain time period; it's what being with her IS, every time. When we aren't together, those feelings are still there, nascent. It feels to me that the D/s does very much "exist" even then; it's just that the rules that apply between us say that when we aren't together I may (within a few pretty specific prohibitions) do as I please. I know (and maybe this is the crux of my objection here) that those feelings aren't "fake" in any way, and they ARE feelings of submission. (Wow, this is getting so long that I apparently have to continue it in another reply! Hope that's not a problem; I'll get to your very nice specific questions in the next bit. ) (Anonymous) wrote: (Part two!)'Let me ask you a question: say you were chatting with friends, and your Domme suddenly IMed you and said "Attend me, now. " Would you immediately drop everything and go, or do you feel you could legitimately say "Not in the mood" or "I'm busy" or simply say "Don't want to?"'Well, in my case I would in fact drop everything and go. Heart pounding in my throat. :) But if some other D/s sub has an agreement with her Mis tress that (say) orders only apply when delivered in the actual (virtual) presence of the Mistress, I wouldn't call that "fake" either, as long as the feelings really are there when they're together. "If your Domme decided you would spend the weekend in a gag, or wearing a certain outfit, do you feel you should be able to deny the request as unacceptable to you?"The rules that she has written for our relationship say that (with a few exceptions that don't include dress) she will give me no orders that apply when we aren't together. So she wouldn't do that, and I wouldn't have to decide whether to deny it. And again, I don't think that the letter of the rules that apply between us means that my submission is fake, because I know that the feelings of submission are real. So maybe what I'm suggesting is that submission is all about the feelings that the D elicits in the s, rather than anything about how orders are given or followed, exactly what limits are put on the s's actions, or anything else like that. If t hose feelings are there, then that's real submission; if they aren't there, then it isn't, even if for whatever reason the s really does follow every order the D gives, 24/7. (In fact the times that I feel mostly utterly helplessly submissive is when Mistress isn't giving me any orders at all, but leaving me on my own to try, with the deepest effort that my soul knows, to figure out what it is she wants, what I can do that will make the world better for her, without her having to tell me, and with luck before she even realizes that she wants it. )(Ehem. Wipes brow and attempts to return to the subject. )"This, IMO, is a good thing, and will seperate the part-timers from the ones willing to commit to a d/s relationship. "I agree with that strongly, except for the "part-timers" part again. Going with the thoughts above, the important distinction here isn't part-time vs. full-time, it's about shallow vs. deep, tourism vs. commitment, mechanics vs. feelings. Wow, lots of thoughts there! You've made me surface som e things that I hadn't really put into words before. I no longer care which of us is right about any particular thing *8) and will just say thanks for the opportunity to put it all down. wrote: The rules that she has written for our relationship say that (with a few exceptions that don't include dress) she will give me no orders that apply when we aren't together. So she wouldn't do that, and I wouldn't have to decide whether to deny it. And again, I don't think that the letter of the rules that apply between us means that my submission is fake, because I know that the feelings of submission are real. OK, and here is exactly what I'm talking about. You and your domme have a set of rules you follow, and you are expected to follow those rules. A "fake subbie" doesn't follow rules, or only follows when he/she wants to follow. They are only interested in kinky sex, and when that's over, they decide just how seriously they will take a d/s committment. So you would follow the rules that you and your domme m ade together - excellent, that You are not the type of person I'm refering to in this thread. kind of "sub" has a set of rules, but obeys only when he/she damn well wants to obey, and gets mad if a dom/me tries to mete out a punishment for rule breaking. Being a submissive does not have to be 24/7, TPE. It means that a set of rules have been agreed upon, and the sub will follow all those rules explicitly, and accept his/her dom/me's punishment for rule breaking. I do not believe that dom/mes have the right to add arbitrarily any rules that *have not been specificly agreed upon* prior to the undertaking of the d/s relationship. Similarly, I do not believe that a submissive has any right to just discard or overlook rules that have been set down simply because he/she doesn't feel like obeying. A d/s relationship can (and IMO should) grow, with the partners adding new things they agree on, and discarding old things that aren't working. But the dom/me commands, and the sub obeys the rules in force, simple as that. Anything less is not "submission" IMO. Given what you've said in your two replies, I wouldn't say you are a "fake subbie," as you would obey what has been set down. I was talking about a particular class of person that likes to take the label "submissive" to themselves, but doesn't really intend to submit, they just want kinky sex games. I hope that makes more sense, now. Thank you for the great replies! It's great to have insightful people read and comment!-V ( ) vannesh S M T W T F S (Anonymous) : The content of this site is intended for those above the age of 18. Minors, please follow this link to a more age- appropriate websit Tristan Taormino - Village Voice Article - The Queer Heterosexual, Redux | |||
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